As opposed to letting an authoritarian state gain more power and influence? Methinks people in other parts of the world must have thought it is a sunk cost fallacy as well to support Britain when they were left standing alone when France fell to the Nazis. But I have to admit as to why some would be reluctant to provide more support for Ukraine considering much of the world is experiencing cost of living crisis. Although many countries, including the US, at the start of World War II were just reeling from the Great Depression either and yet still provided support for Britain.
Ukraine today and Britain then received billions of dollars of support, which is a lot for the common folks, but the truth is that they’re chump change relative to entire budget of the US government back then and now. Though again, I recognise that these are chump change in billions of dollars could make a massive difference to the lives of people on the domestic front. However, I would like to remind others that a lot more billions of dollars will be lost if Russia is allowed to win and if the Nazis back then had won. The Russian invasion of Ukraine is a direct violation of UN Charter to respect national sovereignty and borders. What we have built in the past 70 years or so to maintain peace will be for nothing and we’d be back to the more Wild West-style international relations that led to the Second World War. Letting Russia could collapse the UN and lead to World War III.
Kind of, yeah. A moral cause in one country can be an evil wrongdoing in other. Case in point - Al-Qaeda was formed because US troops were deployed in some country in the middle east to defend someone.
And it’s not even meddling, they are asking for help.
I’m okay with helping Ukraine. I’m not okay if it’s helping only to fuck with Russia.
A moral cause in one country can be an evil wrongdoing in other. Case in point - Al-Qaeda was formed because US troops were deployed in some country in the middle east to defend someone.
Uhm, where did you get that from?
Anyway, I get your point, but your example only shows that morality doesn’t really stop at borders for most people.
I’m okay with helping Ukraine. I’m not okay if it’s helping only to fuck with Russia.
If it’s to stop an authoritarian state from taking over a democratic state it’s good for me. If it’s because of other less ulterior motives (and let’s not kid ourselves, it’s at least partly because of that), I don’t mind. Is it bad when a doctor only saves lives because it pays well?
Actually, I messed up. I thought al-Quaeda was created in response to US’s invasion of Iraq, but it was actually formed a couple years earlier in response to Soviet-Afghan war. Still, the point stands as the guys got very offended by western forces presence on what they considered holy land
Is it bad when a doctor only saves lives because it pays well?
It would be very bad if the doctor is some kind of pervert who is only treating patients as a cover up for his obsession
Anyway, I get your point, but your example only shows that morality doesn’t really stop at borders for most people.
The point is, morality doesn’t stop, but can be different across (abeit, blurry) cultural, religious, political or ideological lines. The US and allies cross a little more of those than Russia in this conflict, but that’s a topic I’d rather not dive into. What I’m arguing here is against Putin’s rhetoric which tells that “The only thing the collective west wants is to destroy Russia”, so…
let’s not kid ourselves, it’s at least partly because of that
I’d advise at least pretending that it’s not and it’s just being “the good guys”. Fuckers like RT, Z-bots and other scum often take such comments and blow them into loudhailers to rally the support for the war. Trust me, “these guys just want to fuck you over” is quite a convincing argument. Besides, there’s plenty of other reasons to support Ukraine
Trust me, “these guys just want to fuck you over” is quite a convincing argument. Besides, there’s plenty of other reasons to support Ukraine
Because Russians are highly nationalistic and have an exceptional sense of…exceptionalism. They have a siege mentality that any outsiders are out to get them (they have been invaded multiple times after all), and that a firm hand ruling them is the only one who could save them from external threats. This leads to the ruling class by easily manipulating the public to support them by stoking nationalism. This stoking of nationalism leads to them craving to carve their own sphere of influence, both avoiding and scapegoating the West.
There are couple of comprehensive and well detailed video explanation of the Russian mindset, which I think is a blindspot for Westerners in understanding their worldview.
To summarise the videos in two words, basically say the Russians believe their country is “eternal” and “innocent”. This idea stems all the way back from the 19th century with many prominent Russians holding the belief including Leo Tolstoy. This in turn influenced the post-Soviet Russian mindset that is fascistic. Many people cite Dugin as being Putin’s influence, as a matter of fact, it was Ivan Ilyich. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ivan_Ilyin?wprov=sfla1
Sunk cost fallacy.
As opposed to letting an authoritarian state gain more power and influence? Methinks people in other parts of the world must have thought it is a sunk cost fallacy as well to support Britain when they were left standing alone when France fell to the Nazis. But I have to admit as to why some would be reluctant to provide more support for Ukraine considering much of the world is experiencing cost of living crisis. Although many countries, including the US, at the start of World War II were just reeling from the Great Depression either and yet still provided support for Britain.
Ukraine today and Britain then received billions of dollars of support, which is a lot for the common folks, but the truth is that they’re chump change relative to entire budget of the US government back then and now. Though again, I recognise that these are chump change in billions of dollars could make a massive difference to the lives of people on the domestic front. However, I would like to remind others that a lot more billions of dollars will be lost if Russia is allowed to win and if the Nazis back then had won. The Russian invasion of Ukraine is a direct violation of UN Charter to respect national sovereignty and borders. What we have built in the past 70 years or so to maintain peace will be for nothing and we’d be back to the more Wild West-style international relations that led to the Second World War. Letting Russia could collapse the UN and lead to World War III.
That’s one weird argument. Are you implying that meddling with other state’s affairs is justified if it’s to keep it from gaining power and influence?
That’s one weird argument. Are you implying morality stops at borders?
And it’s not even meddling, they are asking for help.
Kind of, yeah. A moral cause in one country can be an evil wrongdoing in other. Case in point - Al-Qaeda was formed because US troops were deployed in some country in the middle east to defend someone.
I’m okay with helping Ukraine. I’m not okay if it’s helping only to fuck with Russia.
Uhm, where did you get that from?
Anyway, I get your point, but your example only shows that morality doesn’t really stop at borders for most people.
If it’s to stop an authoritarian state from taking over a democratic state it’s good for me. If it’s because of other less ulterior motives (and let’s not kid ourselves, it’s at least partly because of that), I don’t mind. Is it bad when a doctor only saves lives because it pays well?
Actually, I messed up. I thought al-Quaeda was created in response to US’s invasion of Iraq, but it was actually formed a couple years earlier in response to Soviet-Afghan war. Still, the point stands as the guys got very offended by western forces presence on what they considered holy land
It would be very bad if the doctor is some kind of pervert who is only treating patients as a cover up for his obsession
The point is, morality doesn’t stop, but can be different across (abeit, blurry) cultural, religious, political or ideological lines. The US and allies cross a little more of those than Russia in this conflict, but that’s a topic I’d rather not dive into. What I’m arguing here is against Putin’s rhetoric which tells that “The only thing the collective west wants is to destroy Russia”, so…
I’d advise at least pretending that it’s not and it’s just being “the good guys”. Fuckers like RT, Z-bots and other scum often take such comments and blow them into loudhailers to rally the support for the war. Trust me, “these guys just want to fuck you over” is quite a convincing argument. Besides, there’s plenty of other reasons to support Ukraine
Because Russians are highly nationalistic and have an exceptional sense of…exceptionalism. They have a siege mentality that any outsiders are out to get them (they have been invaded multiple times after all), and that a firm hand ruling them is the only one who could save them from external threats. This leads to the ruling class by easily manipulating the public to support them by stoking nationalism. This stoking of nationalism leads to them craving to carve their own sphere of influence, both avoiding and scapegoating the West.
There are couple of comprehensive and well detailed video explanation of the Russian mindset, which I think is a blindspot for Westerners in understanding their worldview.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f8ZqBLcIvw0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sdFtqa54TuM
To summarise the videos in two words, basically say the Russians believe their country is “eternal” and “innocent”. This idea stems all the way back from the 19th century with many prominent Russians holding the belief including Leo Tolstoy. This in turn influenced the post-Soviet Russian mindset that is fascistic. Many people cite Dugin as being Putin’s influence, as a matter of fact, it was Ivan Ilyich. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ivan_Ilyin?wprov=sfla1
Is that the Kraut I think it is? If so, I don’t think I have enough salt to take with those.
Anyway, what’s your point?