The Linus Tech Tips abuse allegations are yet another reminder that something absolutely needs to be done about the rampant sexism in the tech industry. If you haven’t heard them yet you can read about them here, but be warned, there is some potentially very triggering abuse and self harm detailed: https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1691693740254228741.html
Madison’s story is not unique - we have heard stories like hers time and time again. As a tech professional it makes me sick to share an industry with these horrible people, and to know that little is being done to reign them in.
So, what can be done about this? I don’t have all of the answers, but one thing that comes to mind is that HR departments desperately need actual unbiased oversight, perhaps even from a governing body outside of the company. It has become common knowledge that HR’s primary purpose is to protect the company, and this prevents employees from speaking out and driving internal change even in terrible situations like Madison Reeve and countless others have faced. The way things are run clearly needs to fundamentally change
Let me know in the comments if you have any ideas on how we as a tech community might be able to address these issues, I am truly at a loss. All I want is for tech to be a safe space for everybody to find their passion and success, and it saddens me that we clearly aren’t there yet.
Woman in tech, some stories to share
Back at my first job I was interested in switching teams. I interviewed with one of the existing employees and everything went well. I then had an “interview” with the manager who spent the entire time telling me why I wouldn’t want the job, all things that I was well aware of when I applied go transfer, and all surrounding me being a weak little emotional woman. I reported him to my manager, but nothing ended up happening. He was one of the original employees when the company first started so he was untouchable.
Same thing with clients at my first job. I was a consultant and got sexually harassed by clients A LOT. Staring, comments, overstepping boundaries in various degrees. Not once would the company remove me from an assignment for fear of upsetting the customer. I was expected to just get over it and “remain professional” which means I wasn’t allowed to say anything to them.
Fast forward to today and several jobs later (skipping some less egregious sexism and sexual harassment) I currently work for a company that is consistently voted one of the best places for women to work. Now sexual harassment wise, it’s great, no problems with that thankfully. But I have dealt with sexism such as men telling me my ideas suck and then immediately turning around and presenting them as their own. This was corroborated by the other woman on our team. I documented this pattern of behavior and reported it and surprise! nothing happened. The people doing those things were supposed to have some bullshit “how not to be sexist” classes and that didn’t even happen.
I was recently promoted and I found out I am paid 20% less than male employees in my same role at the company. And it’s not for lack of negotiating or trying, it was on ongoing battle for multiple months. I left my previous job when I found out a guy on my team at the same level was making like 20k more than me. History repeats itself. And men are just blessed with raises and promotions they didn’t even ask for while I am out here documenting and presenting all the reasons I deserve it for scraps.
And it’s not just as simple as “quit and go somewhere else”. It’s a surprise at every job you take, it could be better or worse. But there has always been varying levels of sexism at every job I’ve have had. Even if I’m on a great team where everyone respects me, there could be someone on another team I have to work with that completely disregards me. It’s a risk every time you switch jobs.
Rant over. Ways you can help
-
If you work remotely or over video calls a lot a HUGE benefit is using the hand raising feature. Women get talked over A LOT and if you respect the hand raises everyone gets an uninterrupted turn to speak
-
If you notice someone being interrupted, step in and say “X was going to make a point, and I would like to hear what they have to say” or similar
-
Call out sexism if you see it. There are ways to do this that are not aggressive/rude sounding. If someone brings up an idea as their own, you can say something like “Oh yeah I remember X brought up Y in the previous meeting and I thought it was a good idea” or “X created documentation for Y proposal that I think is really useful in this decision”
-
Sometimes, I just want someone to step in so I can move on with my life. Let’s say we are troubleshooting something and I say X is the solution but it is shot down or ignored by the person I have to work with. Be that dude I can ask to tell them X is the solution so they finally implement it and finally be done. Yes this happens a lot, and this tactic works every time.
It gets very tiring and beats you down to have to fight the same fight all the time, when all you just want to do is do your job. So it really helps to have a culture on the team where people are also speaking up when they see something.
I’m not exactly in tech, tech-adjacent, but I’m a minority as a man in the office where I work and it is so refreshing. No bullshit macho culture I never felt a part of in the first place and everyone just does their job without trying to out-do each other. Really robust sexual harassment policies too.
I so don’t miss endless bro talk about football and grilling and stupid shit like that.
I agree with what you said for the most part, except the fact that I wouldn’t define sexism in the majority of cases having people “stealing” your ideas, nor shooting down ideas.
In the first case it seems a common practice in competitive environments, where workers have no incentive at all to cooperate and all the incentive to screw each other to look better and chase promotions. I think people who do that regularly do that with everyone. Appropriating ideas and work of others is how middle managers in many cases got there and how they climb the ladder, even though everyone knows what they are worth.
The second is an extremely common occurrence in tech, ideas are shot down all the time. I have seen it occurring countless of times, I don’t think is a sexist practice inherently, although still something extremely annoying within tech. It is sexism when ideas are shot down “because a woman is saying it”, though.
My final remark is about the part about “males getting raises without even asking” (paraphrasing). Now, this may have been true in your context, I have no way to dispute it. However, I just want to reinforce that the narrative of “males being somewhat on the same side” disregarding the conflict within workers and owners (I.e. those who get the raises and those who give them) seems to be completely fabricated (based on my experience) and also extremely damaging to workers solidarity. The narrative that somehow gender prevails over class as a factor of unification is very dangerous and plays right in the hand of those who benefit from gender conflict as an obstacle for class unity.
I think some of the points you have to look at demographically and use privilege to correct it. I’m not a woman, but I’ve seen women I work with have their ideas “shot down” simply because it was from them even if it was paraphrased a minute later by a man then magically it’s perfect!
I often make a point of correcting that in my org by saying “This was a good idea the first time from (woman), why did we move on from it last time?” So then people who shot this down have to awkwardly explain why they “didn’t understand” or make up some excuse. It works to highlight that maybe you just weren’t listening. Because it was a woman speaking. It’s unfortunate but it’s common in FAANG. I’m just tired of seeing it as someone who’s worked with some really incredible women who left the industry because of the toxicity.
But isn’t that what he just said? It’s not sexism if someone is just shooting an idea down. Stealing the idea is morally apprehensible. Shooting an idea down because “it’s you” is discriminatory. Shooting an idea down because “a woman had it”, now that’s sexism.
I see a lot of ppl claim sexism, and it might as well be present, even if subtly for a lot of different companies. That said, context matters, and you can be an absolute prick to ppl with out even invoking any sexism.
E.g. I hear students doing an internship often get overlooked. Not cool, some of them are geniuses. Same goes for ppl lower in the corporate ladder vs. higher in the corporate ladder.
What I’m trying to say is: let’s be absolutely clear with what we define as sexism, because it shouldn’t lose it’s meaning by being inserted into discrimination. You don’t need sexism there everytime to involve OSHA.
Also let’s make this clear: if Madison’s allegations are true (and she doesn’t have a horse in this race so there’s a good chance they are), we can straight up skip the sexism and go straight to harassment, abuse, sexual assault, and more. I hope she is able to grasp the sheer horror that this really was, because she should know that no one deserves that and ppl will support the fight in her name.
I figure those issues could be more statistically likely to happen to women, but as you highlighted this is something that tend to happen in tech regardless. I hate shouting match and talking over people, and I am definitely at a disadvantage when meetings reach a certain critical number of participants.
The thing is, when I get talked over, or when my ideas are ignored only to be slightly reworded and repeated by some guy who hasn’t shut up the entire time, well first thing is I give no fucks. There is definitely privilege in the sense that as a man I don’t feel like I have to prove my worth, it is already assumed, so I don’t have to care about looking good in every meeting. Also, as a man, when I am mostly ignored because people are too eager to speak rather than listen, my first assumption is that those people simply suck at meetings. I have the privilege of knowing that it is not discrimination.
Simply doubting that discrimination can exist is mentally exhausting. 20 years ago I was LGBTQ in a rather unaccepting environment, but it rarely came up, nor did most people know. Every time my presence or my ideas weren’t fully acknowledged with approbation I doubted if this was about my identity. I became very insecure about it over time, I simply assumed that I would never be respected as an equal, ever. Well, 20 years later and I am pretty sure this insecurity dripped like crazy in my personality and apparent confidence. This hurt me way more than actual LGBTQ prejudice I am sure.
Anyway, I am just trying to throw in some food for thoughts. There is a lot of competition of ideas going on in tech, very little positive feedback, and a lot of talking over people, because this is just how a lot of men are unfortunately. I fully understand why people who are more likely to be prejudiced against would perceive all sort of false signals in there.
Disclaimer: I know sexism is a real thing, and some women are absolutely being victimized in the workplace. I am merely expanding on the idea that it is because real sexism exists that it is extra important to learn how to be respectful and have good vibes in the workplace.
Also, as a man, when I am mostly ignored because people are too eager to speak rather than listen, my first assumption is that those people simply suck at meetings. I have the privilege of knowing that it is not discrimination.
But it might as well be. I was discriminated/bullied for quite some time after I joined a company. People assumed I knew nothing and disregarded almost anything I said, and generally didn’t even ask me. I was one of the two people in a department. Those people did not suck at meetings/conversations, it was an active discrimination based on their preconceptions. I don’t think gender is by far the only discrimination that can happen within the workplace. But yeah, I definitely agree that I will most likely not being discriminated as a man, in the sense that sexist discrimination in tech happens almost exclusively to women.
There is a lot of competition of ideas going on in tech, very little positive feedback, and a lot of talking over people, because this is just how a lot of men are unfortunately. I fully understand why people who are more likely to be prejudiced against would perceive all sort of false signals in there.
I agree. I - like many others - do my best to change the culture overall, to ensure that people who get promotions have fill leading positions are not those kind of people who will reinforce all of this. Also, I did not work in the US startup environment (and I consider myself lucky), which means I might also be missing real experiences on places much worse than the ones I have been in (the loner-tech-bro-genius hacking culture of the Silicon valley is something I greatly despise).
Sexism isn’t sexism because it only happens to women. Sexism is sexism because it overwhelmingly impacts women. Implicit bias is a thing, someone doesn’t need to wake up and go “I’m gonna be sexist today” for it to still be sexism. This isn’t something I pulled out of my ass, it’s something well documented not only across tech but across the workplace in general.
Thanks for writing an entire essay trying to disprove my experiences though.
Sadly this happens every time this is brought up. Why is it so hard to just listen to women? The ways I said you can help are not a very big ask at all.
Sexism isn’t sexism because it only happens to women.
I mean, if a behavior is not related to being discriminated based on gender, it’s not sexism. It can be mobbing, it can be simply a toxic competitive environment, but that doesn’t make it sexism, that is my point. “IF” being the keyword.
Implicit bias is a thing
I totally agree, and this is why I do think that for someone shutting down a woman, because implicitly there is the though “this is a woman and therefore doesn’t know what she is talking about”, can be sexist, but that behavior is not inherently sexist. There are multiple (bad) reasons why people might do that. People might assume I am not competent, too young/too old to know better, too recent in the company, I went to the wrong university, and many other reason. This is not inherently linked to gender discrimination, that is my point. It can be ageism, hazing (hopefully the translation is accurate), classism or even racism, if not just the behavior of people who just want to gain advantages at expense of others (which is not a form of discrimination per se). All these exist in the workplace, and that’s why I was challenging your conclusion that this is sexism by definition. Now if in your experience you think sexism was the root cause, sure, whatever. But if we want to move the conversation to a more generic “tech” environment, I think it’s worth to expand the analysis.
Thanks for writing an entire essay trying to disprove my experiences though.
Well, with this I guess I understand you are in bad faith. I did not try to disprove your experiences (in fact, I explicitly wrote that for one specific instance), I challenged some of the arguments you made. Trying to imply that I tried to disprove your experiences is extremely dishonest.
Why is it so hard to just listen to women?
Are we not allowed to have different opinion? Do I exist in the workplace as well? Also, expressions such as “And men are just blessed with raises and promotions they didn’t even ask for” are hard to relate for me and for any other working class man who struggle in the workplace I know. I understand you were trying to get your point across, but if that’s your perspective, then we simply live in two different worlds (which is totally possible, given that we probably live in very different places and companies).
I listened (well…read), and I questioned some of your conclusions. If this for you means “not listening to women”, then I suppose we have different perspectives.
Yeah it really is the worst when you have to fight for something that men get without barely trying. And those same men will give advise on how to do it too, completely disregarding how responses are different for women, IE they’re not listening.
-
HR departments desperately need actual unbiased oversight
This is the tech industry we’re talking about, so let’s make it buzzword-compliant. What we need is HRaaS: HR as a Service.
I can’t figure out if I want to downvote for the dumbness of this take on the topic, or upvote it for the accuracy.
NGL, I read it as “harass”, which is kinda ironic.
You can externalize hr but as long as they are beholden to the company it won’t make a difference. They need to be independent.
I’m a woman and I work in tech, as well as had nerdy techy hobbies since I was a child. I’ve definitely not experienced what Madison has experienced in my tech career but I have had plenty of sexist encounters in my time as a retail employee before my current career.
I’ve had a small few creepy incidents in my tech jobs but… Unfortunately what she experienced sounded a lot more like a dude bro gaming circle than an actual company. I’ve seen that behavior, just not in my career. Maybe I’m lucky, but I think the issue is so deeply rooted in LMG that I wouldn’t know how to fix it. It’s a weird gamer culture from what I can gather
The problem here is how “The Tech Sector” is grouped. There are plenty of companies in all sorts of fields with all sorts of different work environments and cultures grouped in under this umbrella.
That’s true, I’ve always considered LTT “consumer electronics” hobby more than anything IT related but tech quickie in it’s infancy taught me a lot and got me started
Yeah, I mean to be fair I’d not consider tech reporting as the tech sector or industry. Like what she’s doing. Eng, product, hardware, applied science, eng managers and maybe program if you’re lucky to have tech program managers. But otherwise you don’t need any engineering degree for their work.
The only way to change culture is by example. Stand up to this behaviour when you see it perpetrated against your coworkers, especially if you’re male. Double especially if you’re in a position of power.
If you run a company, don’t overwork and abuse your employees, and make it safe for them to report these things (hint: this is not achieved by saying the words “this is a safe space”), then really deal with them.
Agree with the other commenter that unions are necessary, but you can’t solve cultural problems with regulation alone. All workers should be represented for lots of reasons, and this is one of them, but to collectively be better we have to individually and collectively model decent behaviour.
The only way to fix culture is to fire people who suck. Forcing people to take shitty “edib” training is useless, but lets companies feel like they’re addressing the problem.
If you needed to be told to treat women with respect you’re not going to learn how to in a 15 minute training video.
I agree with everything but your first paragraph hits the nail on the head! I wanna print it out and frame it. Place it in every office. It may feel awkward and scary, but it is so much more awkward and scary for the recipient(s) of the behavior and speaking up has a lot more risk for them than it would from a third party. It could be a simple “not cool/that’s too far” type comment with a chuckle. Fuck it just try something.
Well said.
deleted by creator
Right? And it says she’s in Vancouver. That’s how you know she’s desperate because her wait time at VGH would have her bled out in the waiting room!
In all seriousness though; this screams wildly of startup bro culture. Especially the part where she said they had this “verbal agreement” yeah, they didn’t want anything written down because they know how screwed they’d be.
I hope she lawyers up!
This is not an issue just with tech but with many other sectors. If it has to be tackled first in tech, then so be it.
I just read through Madison’s whole account of what happened and all the comments here. I have a few key takeaways:
- People are naive - Get shit in writing. Verbal promises aren’t worth a damn.
- Experience matters - It sounds to me like Madison, Colton, and most of the management staff have no idea how to properly manage (up or down). This is a massive problem, but not a surprise. I can say the same for the people in the comments here. You WILL be in shitty situations at work. How you navigate them matters and will determine if your claims will be successful. The most important thing I can tell her, them, and all of you is KNOW YOUR RIGHTS!
- Most people have no idea what they’re talking about - Everyone saying that the government needs to always be involved, or that this is why we need unions has no idea what the fuck they’re talking about. I’m not anti-union, I’m anti-bureaucracy. You think things moved too slowly when you asked for a mirror? Wait until there are MORE people in between that MUST be involved.
- Her mental health is concerning - I don’t know if her mental health issues existed before LMG, but they don’t do much besides detract from her potentially valid points. I’m concerned this will be used to dismiss the issues she encountered rather than fix them. I, personally, didn’t have a high opinion of her when I saw her for the first time (I think it was one of the videos where fans get a custom computer). It makes me wonder how much of this is overblown, but that doesn’t mean her complaints are all invalid. This will be a tough road for her.
The key takeaway, again, is KNOW YOUR RIGHTS!! You have a complaint? Write it in an email. Send it to the intended recipient, and CC HR or BCC your personal email. If you don’t have a paper trail of issues, you will lose. You were asked by your manger or by HR to solve the problem yourself by talking to the other person? Get them to verify that in writing. They’ll backpedal REALLY quickly if they have any sense. A verbal warning? That means jack shit. It can’t be held against you because the company has no paper trail (see? This cuts both ways.) An agreement where they gave you certain assurances verbally? Email the person with a summary of the conversation as you understood it and ask for confirmation of your understanding.
All of this is how you protect yourself as an employee and as an employer. GET SHIT IN WRITING and then use those notes as proof if you need to appeal to a higher authority (HR, upper management, or the government arm responsible for labor issues). And yeah, people have trouble like this because people don’t speak out. You need to not just KNOW your rights, but also EXERCISE THEM.
I say all of this as somebody in a management position. Employees rarely know what the inner workings for disciplinary issues looks like, or how long it takes to be carried out. A complaint doesn’t simply result in termination unless it’s egregious (in which case your complaint needs to be DOCUMENTED BY YOU AS WELL, not just left in the hands of HR or management). I live my life by “trust but verify”. I only trust one person to act in my best interest, and that’s me, so I’m going to give me the best chance of doing that by DOCUMENTING EVERYTHING.
That said, you all need to understand that managing people doesn’t start with a management position. Every relationship needs to be managed and curated. You need something from Suzy? Ask her nicely. Still didn’t get that thing? Email her. Maybe she’s just busy or forgot (but you’ve started your paper trail). No response from Suzy? Follow up on your email and CC her manager. Consider CCing or BCCing your manager as well. Suzy may not like it, but you’re just doing your job. The same rules apply when you’re managing up. Sometimes you’ll get an absolute turd of a manager. It WILL happen, so be prepared to deal with it. It will absolutely suck to deal with, and you will be frustrated, but you’ll have documentation of your position, not a pissing contest between two people.
Am I getting my point across? You’re not a unique snowflake, you’re another cog in the machine. Protect yourself (and others!) by documenting and verifying. And if you see somebody being treated like shit, it’s your job to also raise that!!! Just because it’s not happening to you doesn’t mean you should ignore it. You felt uncomfortable when somebody else got publicly berated? FUCKING SAY SOMETHING! I had a rather incompetent manager start to chastise me in front of the employees I managed at the time. I was 18 or 19 back then. I asked her to stop and to follow me. We went to a separate area and I proceeded to explain to her that I didn’t appreciate what she did. Her complaints may have been valid, but the way she handled it was inappropriate, and I asked her to make sure that if she has a problem with me in the future to please bring it to me privately. She saw the problem and agreed that she was wrong in how she handled it, and thanked me for my handling of the situation. YOU CAN DO THIS, TOO! You can email HR and the CEO after he storms into your area and goes off on somebody. You can say that you felt unsafe in that moment, and that you don’t appreciate how that person was treated. You can stand up for others and for yourself. If you want to be successful in your career YOU NEED TO LEARN TO MANAGE UP!
How about Audits by a governing body
Lmg is a cancer. That thread was horrifying to read.
HR != employee advocates.
HR has one core job: prevent employees from hurting the company. Sure, they help with payroll and benefits and recruiting and stuff, but at the end of the day, the true purpose of HR is that simple. Sometimes HR’s interests will align with your interests and good ethics in general. Sometimes they don’t. This doesn’t mean that you should default to having an antagonistic relationship with HR - in fact, you should definitely not do that. But you should also remember that HR’s goals may or may not align with your own. They are working for the company, not for you.
True worker representation can only be done by - you guessed it - workers.
Unionize. Solidarity forever.
